Here are the edited excerpts from the conversation:
Lex Fridman: When you were eight, you joined the RSS, which espouses the idea of Hindu nationalism. Can you tell me about RSS and what impact they had on who you are and the development of your political ideas?
PM Modi: …In our village, there was a branch of the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh, where we played sports and sang patriotic songs. Something about those songs touched me deeply. They stirred something inside me, and that’s how I eventually became part of the RSS. One of the core values that were instilled in us at RSS was, whatever you do, do it with a purpose. Even while studying, study with the goal of learning enough to contribute to the nation. Even when you exercise, do it with the purpose of strengthening your body to serve the nation. This is what we were taught. And today, RSS is a massive organisation. It is now nearing its 100th anniversary. Such a massive volunteer organisation likely doesn’t exist anywhere else in the world. Millions of people are connected to it, but understanding RSS is not that simple. One must make an effort to truly grasp the nature of its work. More than anything, the RSS provides you with a clear direction toward what can truly be called a purpose in life. Secondly, the nation is everything, and serving the people is akin to serving God… I feel blessed to gain life’s values from such a sacred organisation. Through the RSS, I found a life of purpose… The teachings of Ramakrishna Mission, Swami Vivekananda, and the service-driven philosophy of the RSS have played a crucial role in shaping me.
Lex Fridman: You have seen a lot of difficult situations in the history of India. One of them, the 2002 Gujarat riots… You were chief minister of Gujarat at the time. Looking back, what lessons do you draw from that time? And we should also say that India’s independent Supreme Court upheld twice, in ’12 and ’22, that you had no involvement in the violence of the 2002 Gujarat riots. But I was wondering if you could speak to the broad lessons you draw from that time?
PM Modi: I’d like to paint you a clearer picture of the 12 to 15 months leading up to that, so you can fully understand the atmosphere of that time. For instance, take December 24, 1999, roughly three years earlier, an Indian flight from Kathmandu to Delhi was hijacked, redirected to Afghanistan and landed in Kandahar. Hundreds of Indian passengers were held hostage. It caused massive turmoil across India as people faced life and death uncertainty. Then, in the year 2000, the Red Fort in Delhi was attacked by terrorists. Yet another crisis struck the nation, intensifying fear and turmoil. On September 11th, 2001, the Twin Towers in America faced a devastating terror attack, once again shocking the entire world. Because ultimately, the people behind these attacks are driven by a similar mindset. Then in October 2001, terrorists attacked the Jammu and Kashmir Assembly. Soon after, on December 13th, 2001, India’s parliament was targeted. Within just eight to 10 months, these major global terrorist attacks took place, violent incidents that led to bloodshed and the loss of innocent lives. In such a tense environment, even the smallest spark can ignite unrest. The situation had already become extremely volatile. In such times, suddenly, on October 7th, 2001, I was given the responsibility of becoming chief minister…Gujarat was recovering from a devastating earthquake… My first major task as chief minister was overseeing the rehabilitation of survivors… On February 24, 2002, I became a state representative, an elected representative for the first time. And it was only around February 24th, 25th, or 26th that I stepped into the Gujarat Assembly for the very first time. On February 27th, 2002, we were seated in the Assembly for the budget session. And that same day, it had been just three days since I’d become a state representative, when suddenly the horrific Godhra incident occurred. It was a tragedy of unimaginable magnitude, people were burned alive. You can imagine, against the backdrop of incidents like the Kandahar hijacking, the attack on parliament, or even 9/11, and then to have so many people killed and burned alive… The perception that these were the biggest riots ever is actually misinformation. If you review the data from before 2002, you will see that Gujarat faced frequent riots. Curfews were constantly being imposed somewhere. Communal violence could erupt over trivial issues, like kite flying contests or even minor bicycle collisions. Before 2002, Gujarat witnessed over 250 significant riots. The riots in 1969 lasted nearly six months. So there was a long history, long before I was in the picture. But that one tragic incident in 2002 became a sparking point, leading some people towards violence… Most important thing is, in Gujarat, where riots used to happen some way or the other every year, but after 2002, in 22 years, there hasn’t been a single major riot in Gujarat…
